Is it too much to ask??

[turbospielberg]

I am just about to make your $300 dollars look pants, i have spent ?25'000 on my film so far with over 90 people involved

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">GET OVER IT!

[Alex]

Originally posted by Kev Owens:
Hey Alex, by gentlemens agreement you mean verbal contract- I have a quote too:

"A verbal contract isn't worth the paper it's printed on."

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hmmmm. So you think it nerdy to go to small claims court over this matter, but if it had been your movie, would you have made them sign all kinds of contracts? What would be the point of the contracts, the actor in this instance would probably have walked away to be with his friends anyway.

A verbal agreement becomes paper once the participants engage in the procedure that was verbally agreed to.

Sure the actor can lie in court and make stuff up, but then it's up to the actor to live the life of a sociopath rather being a stand-up guy.

[Kev Owens]

No Alex, I don't think it's nerdy. I just believe that if what assume is the case (with an unpaid actor who didn't sign a contract) and you tried to sue him then you wouldn't have a leg to stand on!

Plus- I've written/directed a no-budget movie before when I DID have an actor walk out on me! Okay- it wasn't my lead, but it was still a problem. I dealt with the problem successfully myself and left the court system to deal with people who may actually have good use for it.

Sure the actor can lie in court and make stuff up, but then it's up to the actor to live the life of a sociopath rather being a stand-up guy.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well- like I said, verbal contract is worth nothing- because of course they'll lie about it!!! I'm sure they won't lose any sleep because you don't think they're a stand-up guy!

[Alex]

The truth comes out, you can't support suing the guy because you didn't do it when you had the opportunity.

This is how evil works. Once it's accepted, it manifests itself over and over. You didn't have an Alex/yoda to guide you, and now you advocate the proliferation of the evil empire methodology against other unsuspecting fellows.

Hopefully natedogs inner Luke will see the manifestation and obliterate it before it spreads.

[Alex]

Kev, in your case we'll make an exception. We'll put blinders on you and carefully escort you to the Small Claims Court, er, the "Returns Department" and get you a refund.

Kev, the idea is not to sue for thousands, but to get reimbursed for rental expenses that were not fully utilized because of a wayward actor.

[miker]

at the very least you should get your actors to sign a release form.

why?

because if you don't, THEY can SUE YOU for using their likeness without permission!

of course, they'd only do that if your film actually made any money, which is why films only make NET profit and never GROSS profit.

ask the scriptwriters of Batman ...

so if your actor or his lawyers are clued up enough, your day in court could be very counter productive from your point of view!

[Sam Gowland]

You guys aren't likely to come to any agreement on this(suing people) based on the fact Alex resides in the US and Kev resides in the UK. Your outlooks are (socially) different to say the least but as Kev said that debate belongs on a political forum ...

What would be more useful would be suggestions of how to deal with the problem in a practical way [img]biggrin.gif[/img]

[belovedmonster]

I must admit it would never of crossed my mind to go to court if something like this happened to me, but i think you have every chance of succesfully winning.

Here in the UK we arent yet in the mind frame of "you caused me loss im gunna sue your *** " which the americans have, but thats not to say that the law is any different. You can still sue people over things in the UK its just we dont choose to.

I think the fact he didnt tell you he was going is significant aswell... he basicly didnt tell you becos he knew he wouldnt be allowed to leave the shoot becos of the loss of time and money it would involve you and your crew. Thats gotta make you winning more likely... Its almost like admiting the fact he knew leaving was wrong.

Im asking a friend of mine, Colin Barret who writes for Camcorder User, What Camcorder and Computer User. Ill see what he says on the suing front... he will be able to give you a definitive answer.

Theres no garantee you will win, but i think you most certainly have a leg to stand on!

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ September 21, 2003 06:24 AM: Message edited by: belovedmonster ]</font>

[belovedmonster]

The problem is more to do with where this took place - UK or USA? If it were in the UK, you could issue proceedings through the court under the Small Claims Procedure, but as there was no written contract or specific evidence of an agreement which could be used in court, it's doubtful whether it would get anywhere.

In any event, a verbal agreement is a contract, and the fact that the guy came along in the first instance to appear in the video is evidence of the fact that he accepted the deal. However, the person who did the "hiring" is at fault for doing everything on the nod. I would never do this.

The bigger question is what would happen if they did actually finish the movie satisfactorily (with the "actor" actually fulfilling his verbal commitment) and a distrubutor or agent saw the movie and decided to offer a huge great distrubution deal. Would fees and rolyalties be paid to all concerned - and on what basis? Would the lead actor now suddenly want a huge fee for his part in it, and would he veto the deal if he didn't get his way? Also, there's always the possibility of the producer/director suddenly claiming that the verbal deal was "no hard cash and no residuals" (royalties in film-speak), with payments being made only in tea-cakes? Who could prove otherwise?

I think any film which requires an outlay of cash needs written agreements. I've always done it this way and I recommend every one else to as well.

In the case of the one you mention, if I were the director I'd give up and say goodbye to the hire charge. I'd send "the boys" around though!

Colin

[Yammeryammeryammer]

I just kinda thought of something. I've had people not be able to 'make it' before, and scheduling conflicts, etc.etc.etc., but having an actor leave to see his friends before they leave would be an acceptable situation if they had told me before (which obviously isn't the case with you), but if there is a problem, I generally get wind before it gets out of hand, because I am usually friends with the people I work with. I don't know if that is the best way to go or not, but it does generally make things more smooth and easier to have fun.